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[dramatic music playing]
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[Kathleen] I inherited this defense theory
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that Steven Avery's blood in the RAV
had come from the 1996 blood vial.
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So, I started focusing on the viability
of that theory
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and if I wanted to continue with it.
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We added one more experiment...
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[Kathleen] At trial, the defense got
totally sandbagged on it,
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because the State tested for EDTA
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and refuted the arguments
that the defense had made to the jury. It's my opinion that the bloodstains
that were collected from the RAV4
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could not have come from the EDTA tube
that was provided to us in this case.
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So, we did an extensive investigation
on EDTA
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and determined, talking to some of
the leading experts in the country,
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that there was no point in retesting.
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I also explored a method of determining
the age of the blood
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to detect whether it was '05 blood
from Steven Avery
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or whether it was from
the 1996 blood vial.
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But Dr. Reich explained to me,
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"You're talking about blood that degrades
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and is in a car from a 2005 murder." So, he was cautioning me
that it would be unlikely
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that there would be enough blood,
or any test,
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that could date this blood.
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So, I began to explore other places
the blood could've come from.
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[reporter] They say they found
blood evidence in the car.
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Why do you think the DNA evidence
is inaccurate?
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[Steven]
Because somebody had to put it there.
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I know I had a cut on my finger.
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I know the blood was in my house
from that, and I didn't clean it up,
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and it was cleaned up.
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I don't know.
I'm still trying to figure it out.
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How it all happened.
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You know, it's puzzling.
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[reporter 2] He says an old cut
reopened and bled on his sink.
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[Steven] Only thing I can think of
is when I cut my hand,
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when it broke open again.
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And in the bathroom, I had...
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There was blood on the sink.
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You know, I woke up the next morning,
it was all cleaned up.
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That's...
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Until right now,
I'm still trying to think,
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"Who cleaned it up? Who was in my house?"
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[Kathleen] For years,
I mean, all the way back to 2005,
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he's talked about the fact
the blood was taken from his trailer
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on the night of the 3rd,
that he was bleeding
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and that he bled in the sink
and on the floor.
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[theme music plays]
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[Kathleen] Hello?
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-Hi.
-[Dolores] Hi.
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How are you doing?
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[Dolores]
Alright, as long as I'm sitting down.
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[both laugh]
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[Kathleen] I know what you mean.
Do you feel bad? Like...
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[Dolores] I hurt.
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My legs hurt me. I can't walk hardly.
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Really?
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So you've gotten worse
since I was here last?
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[Dolores] Yeah.
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-Have you talked to Steven?
-[Dolores] Today, I did.
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[Kathleen] Yeah?
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So, he and I went through this last week.
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The order is going in to turn the stuff
over to me for the testing.
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-Yeah.
-Good.
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We did it by agreement,
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because once you start litigating testing,
it could take us five years.
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So, we seemed to...
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I won't be around here in five years,
I don't think.
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No, I don't want to be
working on this in five years.
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[Kathleen] I just got a screwdriver here.
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-Oh, you brought your own tools?
-[Kathleen laughs] Yeah.
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I'm a full-service law firm.
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Yeah, so I want to go up to the trailer.
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I'm gonna try to take the sink out
if I can.
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And, um, you have the key?
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I got a key here, too.
Chuckie brought it here.
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[Kathleen] Yeah. I could get it.
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[Dolores] It's behind them paper plates
on the counter.
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[Kathleen] Yeah. OK.
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So, I'm gonna go up there,
and then I'll come back by before I leave.
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I'll just tell you what I find.
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-[Dolores] Yeah. OK, then.
-OK.
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[Kathleen] Because he said
that he saw pry marks on the door.
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Let me go talk to him.
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-Hey, Kurt?
-[Kurt] Yes.
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[Kathleen] You know, this thing looks like
it's got a pry mark on it with...
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-That door?
-Yeah.
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[Kathleen] See on here?
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[Kurt] Yeah.
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[camera shutter]
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[Kathleen] It's crazy, though,
that they would come to the front.
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[camera shutter]
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Probably somebody who's done it
a bunch of times.
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[Kurt laughs] Yeah.
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Because I think cops,
they would have that.
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-Because they find cars all the time.
-[Kurt] Yeah.
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And they get into them.
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-[Kurt] Like a slim jim.
-Yeah.
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That's the official name for it.
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-[Kurt] That's it?
-Duh.
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Here it is.
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I think we just have to disconnect it.
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I have to... We gotta have that surface.
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-[Kurt] Yeah.
-[Kathleen] OK.
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[Kathleen] At least you popped it up.
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Well, we'll see if the water's
gonna be connected still.
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[Kurt] I just want the wrench
to actually take the pipe out.
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[clattering]
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[Kurt] Yeah.
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-[Kathleen] Is it moving? Good.
-[Kurt] Yeah. Should be pretty soon.
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Alright. Voilà.
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-You remember his cut finger?
-[Dolores] Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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I know it was always bleeding,
breaking open.
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It bled in that sink.
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Well, yeah, somebody cleaned it.
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Do you remember him saying that?
That someone had cleaned it?
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-He said something about it.
-Yeah.
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Because he kept trying to tell
his trial attorneys
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that they took the blood out of the sink,
but nobody was listening to him.
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Yeah, so I think
that's the way it happened.
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So, all that got done on the 3rd.
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Oh, yeah?
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[Kathleen] Would there be any reason
that Steven would have a pry bar?
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Because it looks like a pry bar was used
to open up his trailer.
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You might call it a nail puller.
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[Chuck] OK.
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[Kathleen] Don't close it.
I'm gonna put it back in there.
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Hang on a second once.
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-That is a nail remover.
-[Kathleen] That's what you call it?
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-Yeah.
-[Kathleen] OK.
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-[Kathleen] Alright.
-I just found out something.
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-What?
-This is Carla, my daughter.
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-Yeah?
-Brendan's getting released?
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-Is he? Today?
-I don't know.
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-You want to... Here, talk to her.
-Yeah. OK.
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Yeah, because maybe the judge...
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Yeah, Carla. It's Kathleen. How are you?
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[Carla] It just came online
that Judge, uh, Judge...
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Duffin. Are they gonna...
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Are they gonna do it today?
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[Carla] Um, as soon as they get an address
of where he's gonna be tonight...
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-I believe so.
-OK.
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[Carla] I don't know if it's today or
tomorrow, but, yeah, it just said online.
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Are they gonna release him
from where he is incarcerated right now,
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or are they gonna move him
and then release him or can you tell?
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[Carla]
Um, I didn't fully read the brief yet.
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OK. I'll pull it up online.
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Thank you. That's a...
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That's great news.
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[Carla] Oh, yeah, yeah.
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[Brittany] It sounded like
she was gonna cry to me on the phone.
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Who?
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[Brittany]
Kayla. What are you gonna do, cry?
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Maybe she...
Maybe it was gonna be a happy cry.
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[Kathleen] So, I just saw the court order.
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They're gonna let Brendan out.
He should get out today.
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They're just getting
the probation officer approved.
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I bet Barbara's crying
if she hears it already.
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[Kathleen] Does she know?
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-[Brittany] I don't know.
-[Kathleen] You have a number?
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[chuckles]
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[Kathleen] Seems like she'd want to know.
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I think her phone stays in the car.
She can't take it in.
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-[Kathleen] Oh.
-[Earl] Yeah.
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-[Kathleen] That's it.
-[Earl] They're pretty strict there.
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[Brittany] When was she supposed
to get off?
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Three.
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Because if he can get out today,
someone has to pick him up, right?
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Yeah, they do.
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Somebody probably wants to start driving,
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because it's gonna take them a while
to get there.
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-And she should be the one.
-[Kathleen] She should be the one.
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Well, we have to figure out
where she works.
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Don't you think somebody
ought to go tell her?
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Columbus Street.
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[Earl] Hmm?
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Do you want to ride over there
and tell her?
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[Kathleen] This'll be crazy.
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[Dolores] Should we go this way
or go straight?
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Could you figure out what time
they need to be there?
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Because it's a couple of hours.
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Yes.
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So, Columbia Correctional Center.
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I'm working off what they do
in most places, but you never know.
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[Kathleen]
Maybe they couldn't talk to her.
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[child shouting]
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-[Earl] Her boss will not let her leave--
-[Kathleen] Are you kidding?
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[Earl] Ugh, jeez...
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See, I'm a little...
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I don't want to crowd Northwestern,
because I'm not the attorney.
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[Earl] Her boss is talking
to Brendan's lawyer right now.
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-[Kathleen] He is?
-[Kurt] Nirider is talking to Barb's boss.
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[Earl] I don't know what time it is now.
Two o'clock?
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[Brittany] It's two o'clock.
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She said she'd lose her job
if she walked out.
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I just got home from work, and Brendan
was supposed to be getting released.
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But that's all I know. I don't know when.
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00:14:00,272 --> 00:14:02,641
I don't know how. I don't know nothing.
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So, fill us in, Ma.
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00:14:36,275 --> 00:14:39,178
Fill you in with what?
All I know is he's coming home.
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That's the greatest feeling ever.
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[Scott] Did they say what day?
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00:14:47,786 --> 00:14:48,621
No.
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[Scott] Is it gonna be this week?
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Don't know.
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She's calling me back later.
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27 News has been here
at Columbia Correctional all day
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00:15:13,479 --> 00:15:14,647
waiting on Dassey's release.
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00:15:14,713 --> 00:15:18,183
But we have learned that
the US Probation Office in Milwaukee,
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00:15:18,250 --> 00:15:20,886
which will supervise Dassey's release,
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00:15:20,953 --> 00:15:23,822
has to visit the home
where he plans to be living first,
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00:15:23,889 --> 00:15:24,990
before he can be released.
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Meanwhile, Wisconsin
Attorney General Brad Schimel said
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00:15:27,893 --> 00:15:32,231
he plans to file an emergency motion
to stop Dassey's release.
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No table.
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00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:46,812
Usually by twenty-five to, he'll call.
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00:15:47,079 --> 00:15:48,414
[Scott] Yeah, it's getting close.
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There he is.
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[musical ringtone]
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Sit.
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[automated voice]
Hello. This is a collect call from...
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[Brendan] Brendan.
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[automated voice] ...an inmate
at the Columbia Correctional Institution.
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To accept charges, press 1.
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00:16:07,833 --> 00:16:08,667
[beep]
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Thank you for using CenturyLink.
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You may start the conversation now.
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-Hello, honey.
-Hello?
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00:16:16,608 --> 00:16:17,910
[Brendan] You hear the good news?
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-Did you?
-Yes.
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00:16:19,845 --> 00:16:21,547
[Brendan]
Yeah, but I didn't get to see it.
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00:16:21,947 --> 00:16:23,882
You didn't get to see it? Why's that?
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[Brendan]
'Cause they let me out for the showers
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at the same time as that news was on.
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00:16:28,921 --> 00:16:29,888
Oh, really?
234
00:16:29,955 --> 00:16:32,391
Hey, buddy, can you do us a favor
and talk louder?
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[Brendan] Uh, yeah.
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Yeah, but when are they gonna
release me, though?
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We don't know yet.
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[Brendan] I thought it would be tonight.
239
00:16:43,369 --> 00:16:46,638
Like, I'm even wearing
my own personal underwear right now.
240
00:16:46,705 --> 00:16:47,773
[Scott laughing]
241
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:48,741
Really?
242
00:16:49,508 --> 00:16:50,509
[Brendan] I'm wearing...
243
00:16:50,576 --> 00:16:52,011
You planning on getting out?
244
00:16:52,911 --> 00:16:53,946
[Brendan] Yeah, I...
245
00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:55,247
[both laughing]
246
00:16:55,314 --> 00:16:56,815
[Brendan] I even put my sweatpants on.
247
00:16:56,882 --> 00:16:58,884
You were really ready to go, aren't you?
248
00:17:00,152 --> 00:17:02,621
[Brendan] So, I might...
I might be out by Friday, probably.
249
00:17:03,489 --> 00:17:06,091
[Barb] So we're hoping. Are you excited?
250
00:17:06,158 --> 00:17:07,292
[dogs barking]
251
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,061
-[Brendan] Yeah.
-[Barb] Yeah?
252
00:17:09,728 --> 00:17:10,596
So am I.
253
00:17:13,832 --> 00:17:17,636
I'll be more excited when you're here.
254
00:17:18,871 --> 00:17:19,738
[Brendan] Yeah.
255
00:17:19,805 --> 00:17:20,639
Yeah.
256
00:17:21,707 --> 00:17:23,042
That I know you're out.
257
00:17:25,677 --> 00:17:28,047
[Brendan] Yeah, you'll be more excited
once I'm in your arms.
258
00:17:28,113 --> 00:17:29,181
[Brendan chuckles]
259
00:17:29,248 --> 00:17:30,082
Yep.
260
00:17:31,650 --> 00:17:33,752
It's probably gonna be just me
and your mother.
261
00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:37,156
[Brendan] I think they would bring
my stuff to you guys first
262
00:17:37,222 --> 00:17:38,590
before they release me.
263
00:17:38,657 --> 00:17:40,426
You know, because
when Steven was coming out,
264
00:17:40,492 --> 00:17:43,495
he had Mom's hand in one hand,
and the other one in...
265
00:17:43,562 --> 00:17:44,696
-Jenny's.
-Oh, yeah.
266
00:17:44,763 --> 00:17:45,864
[Brendan] Jenny's.
267
00:17:48,133 --> 00:17:50,769
I don't know
if he even brung anything with him.
268
00:17:50,836 --> 00:17:52,805
I think he left everything there.
269
00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:55,074
I don't know. I don't remember.
270
00:17:56,008 --> 00:17:59,211
[Brendan] I thought he brought
his typewriter with him, didn't he?
271
00:17:59,278 --> 00:18:02,381
[Barb] Oh, God. I don't know.
That's been too long ago.
272
00:18:02,448 --> 00:18:03,282
[Brendan] Yeah.
273
00:18:03,715 --> 00:18:07,052
[Barb] So, is there a different way
in there besides the front door?
274
00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:08,821
[Brendan] Um...
275
00:18:09,988 --> 00:18:12,424
Just that sally port's
just right in the front, so I don't...
276
00:18:12,491 --> 00:18:13,659
I don't think there is.
277
00:18:15,427 --> 00:18:18,564
We're just trying to figure out a way
to get you out here safely, that's all.
278
00:18:19,064 --> 00:18:19,898
[Brendan] Yeah.
279
00:18:22,234 --> 00:18:24,002
Without any news media.
280
00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:27,005
-[Brendan] Yeah?
-Yeah.
281
00:18:40,285 --> 00:18:42,054
[radio host] People are really frustrated.
282
00:18:42,121 --> 00:18:46,091
The media is making him out
as kind of a rock star and a victim,
283
00:18:46,158 --> 00:18:48,260
when the real victim is Teresa Halbach.
284
00:18:48,327 --> 00:18:51,196
[caller] I mean, come on, now.
He's not a rock star. He's a killer.
285
00:18:51,263 --> 00:18:54,366
[caller 2] They did what they did,
and he should never get out,
286
00:18:54,433 --> 00:18:57,636
and I had to pull over and call you
because it just upsets me.
287
00:18:57,703 --> 00:18:59,671
[radio host]
If there's some legal issue, OK, fine.
288
00:18:59,738 --> 00:19:01,039
But these guys did it,
289
00:19:01,106 --> 00:19:03,642
and, somehow, along the way,
we've lost that.
290
00:19:22,961 --> 00:19:27,065
Megan, we just learned about an hour ago
that the Wisconsin Department of Justice
291
00:19:27,132 --> 00:19:30,269
has filed a motion
trying to stop Dassey's release.
292
00:19:30,669 --> 00:19:33,772
He's gonna be behind those bars here
for at least one more day,
293
00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:37,843
as the State filed an emergency order
to stop him from getting out.
294
00:19:37,910 --> 00:19:40,279
Wisconsin Attorney General
Brad Schimel notes
295
00:19:40,345 --> 00:19:43,615
Dassey's lawyers claim
his confession was coerced.
296
00:19:43,682 --> 00:19:45,717
Schimel says, even if it was,
297
00:19:45,784 --> 00:19:49,087
that doesn't mean Dassey didn't
actually sexually assault,
298
00:19:49,154 --> 00:19:51,190
kill, and mutilate Teresa Halbach.
299
00:19:51,256 --> 00:19:53,692
"Accordingly, Dassey's release
should be regarded
300
00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:56,061
as a serious public safety issue."
301
00:19:56,261 --> 00:20:01,633
And Schimel is asking the court
to make a decision on this by tomorrow.
302
00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:06,772
Of course, Dassey's family has said
they hope to have home by Thanksgiving.
303
00:20:07,105 --> 00:20:10,175
In Portage, Nick Bohr, WISN 12 News.
304
00:20:30,562 --> 00:20:34,566
This morning, Judge Duffin reviewed
the State's motion
305
00:20:34,633 --> 00:20:40,672
and concluded that they just rehashed
what they had said before
306
00:20:40,739 --> 00:20:43,508
and there was no reason
for him to change his mind.
307
00:20:44,977 --> 00:20:47,579
So, Judge Duffin, in his decision,
308
00:20:47,646 --> 00:20:52,117
based upon the home visit, the interviews,
the review of Brendan's records,
309
00:20:52,451 --> 00:20:53,652
uh...
310
00:20:53,719 --> 00:20:54,820
based upon all of that,
311
00:20:54,886 --> 00:20:58,624
ordered that Brendan be released
no later than Friday at eight o'clock.
312
00:21:10,469 --> 00:21:12,771
[Laura] The family is over the moon.
313
00:21:12,838 --> 00:21:16,608
Brendan and his mother have spent
ten Thanksgivings apart.
314
00:21:17,309 --> 00:21:20,879
And the idea that he could be home
by Thanksgiving is...
315
00:21:22,114 --> 00:21:23,949
I mean, talk about tasting gratitude.
316
00:21:39,631 --> 00:21:42,167
[newscaster] Some wonder why
current Attorney General Brad Schimel
317
00:21:42,234 --> 00:21:45,337
is fighting so hard to keep Dassey
locked up.
318
00:21:46,104 --> 00:21:49,975
I approach this from the perspective
of the family of Teresa Halbach.
319
00:21:50,042 --> 00:21:52,477
And, um, they...
320
00:21:53,111 --> 00:21:55,714
they've had no opportunity
to hug her on Thanksgiving.
321
00:21:55,781 --> 00:21:57,616
And this is, um...
322
00:21:58,317 --> 00:22:01,119
Until we sort out with certainty
323
00:22:01,186 --> 00:22:05,190
whether that jury's verdict
against Brendan Dassey will stand or not,
324
00:22:05,257 --> 00:22:07,793
um, we need to keep him where he is.
325
00:22:12,364 --> 00:22:14,933
Basically, the State is doing
whatever they can
326
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,435
to keep this from happening.
327
00:22:18,537 --> 00:22:20,806
Right now the ball is in the 7th Circuit.
328
00:22:36,388 --> 00:22:38,023
[dialing phone]
329
00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:41,626
Uh, good afternoon.
This is Bob Dvorak calling from Milwaukee.
330
00:22:41,693 --> 00:22:43,895
I'm wondering who the duty judge is
this week.
331
00:22:44,296 --> 00:22:46,598
I'm calling about the Dassey case.
332
00:22:47,866 --> 00:22:51,370
Yeah, yeah, OK.
So we don't know who it's going to.
333
00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:52,604
OK, thanks. Bye.
334
00:23:00,078 --> 00:23:01,847
[announcer] This is Breaking News Now
335
00:23:01,913 --> 00:23:04,049
from Today's TMJ 4.
336
00:23:04,616 --> 00:23:07,753
Breaking news:
Brendan Dassey will remain in prison
337
00:23:07,819 --> 00:23:09,454
pending the outcome of an appeal.
338
00:23:09,521 --> 00:23:12,624
The US Court of Appeals in Chicago
just made that ruling.
339
00:23:12,691 --> 00:23:15,026
[reporter]
Now, the three-judge panel out of Chicago
340
00:23:15,093 --> 00:23:17,529
didn't offer an opinion
on why it issued the stay,
341
00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:18,930
it simply granted it.
342
00:23:18,997 --> 00:23:21,400
This is the same court
that will ultimately decide
343
00:23:21,466 --> 00:23:25,237
whether or not to overturn
the August ruling by Judge William Duffin
344
00:23:25,303 --> 00:23:27,539
that overturned Dassey's conviction.
345
00:23:27,973 --> 00:23:29,574
In response to today's order,
346
00:23:29,641 --> 00:23:31,977
Dassey's legal team released a statement
that said,
347
00:23:32,644 --> 00:23:34,913
"We are disappointed
more than words can say.
348
00:23:34,980 --> 00:23:36,348
The fight goes on."
349
00:23:36,415 --> 00:23:38,950
Meanwhile, Steven Avery's attorney...
350
00:23:49,094 --> 00:23:52,631
[Laura] Brendan has to stay in prison
until his appeal is resolved.
351
00:23:53,865 --> 00:23:58,437
It was a blow, but, you know,
Brendan's a rock here.
352
00:23:58,503 --> 00:23:59,571
He's our rock.
353
00:24:00,138 --> 00:24:04,743
And his faith in us, and his optimism,
354
00:24:04,810 --> 00:24:06,812
is what keeps us going forward.
355
00:24:07,379 --> 00:24:11,783
This is one skirmish
in a series of battles
356
00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:14,152
that is gonna end in the 7th Circuit,
357
00:24:14,219 --> 00:24:17,289
and we're ready to fight for Brendan,
358
00:24:17,355 --> 00:24:20,525
and we're confident
that we're going to prevail.
359
00:24:29,367 --> 00:24:30,469
[elevator beeping]
360
00:24:44,649 --> 00:24:47,652
[reporter] Dassey and his attorneys
were expecting his release
361
00:24:47,719 --> 00:24:52,991
from the Columbia Correctional Institution
here in Portage by Friday at 8:00 p.m.
362
00:24:53,058 --> 00:24:56,261
But right now,
it's clear that's not going to happen.
363
00:24:56,328 --> 00:24:59,130
[reporter 2] Steven Avery
is still serving a life sentence.
364
00:24:59,197 --> 00:25:01,666
He's currently being held
at Waupun Correctional.
365
00:25:01,733 --> 00:25:05,871
He, of course, was the focus
of that documentary, Making a Murderer.
366
00:25:06,204 --> 00:25:08,106
Avery's current attorney,
Kathleen Zellner...
367
00:25:08,173 --> 00:25:09,040
[door closes]
368
00:25:09,107 --> 00:25:11,576
...claims new testing of some
key pieces of evidence
369
00:25:11,643 --> 00:25:14,379
will clear him of that murder.
370
00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:17,015
[Dolores] Do you want this hamburger?
371
00:25:17,949 --> 00:25:20,252
Get me off that goddamn camera!
372
00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:43,308
I had a bad day.
373
00:25:44,509 --> 00:25:45,510
[Dolores] Me, too.
374
00:25:53,051 --> 00:25:55,020
I don't know what Barbara's
gonna do with her job.
375
00:25:55,854 --> 00:25:57,589
I heard she took a whole month off.
376
00:25:59,991 --> 00:26:01,259
How's she gonna live? She ain't.
377
00:26:02,394 --> 00:26:04,663
She got over a $1,000 house payment.
378
00:26:12,437 --> 00:26:15,140
[reporter] A federal appeals court
has granted the State's request
379
00:26:15,206 --> 00:26:17,676
to keep Brendan Dassey in prison.
380
00:26:17,742 --> 00:26:21,880
Wisconsin Attorney General Brad Schimel
filed that emergency motion yesterday.
381
00:26:21,947 --> 00:26:24,616
This morning,
7th District Court of Appeals
382
00:26:24,683 --> 00:26:26,952
approved the motion for the stay.
383
00:26:27,552 --> 00:26:29,554
[reporter 2]
The timeline is the big question here.
384
00:26:29,621 --> 00:26:32,924
Federal court records show
December deadlines for both sides
385
00:26:32,991 --> 00:26:35,460
to file paperwork in the appeal
regarding Dassey's overturned...
386
00:26:35,527 --> 00:26:37,295
That all sticks in my head.
387
00:26:38,129 --> 00:26:39,331
How many years of it?
388
00:26:39,898 --> 00:26:42,434
[reporter] There's no specific date
for when a final opinion
389
00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:44,703
would be issued by that three-judge panel,
390
00:26:44,769 --> 00:26:47,072
but it could take several months
or longer.
391
00:26:47,138 --> 00:26:52,077
Brendan Dassey will remain in prison
during the appeal process.
392
00:26:52,143 --> 00:26:55,480
Today, the 7th District Court of Appeals
overruled...
393
00:26:56,948 --> 00:26:58,783
[Steven] It's just another day and...
394
00:27:01,753 --> 00:27:03,254
the justice ain't there yet.
395
00:27:05,624 --> 00:27:11,997
The State will keep on fighting
and they'll just show more stuff on TV.
396
00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:17,135
He's going through the same thing I did.
397
00:27:17,869 --> 00:27:19,938
You know, you got your hopes up,
398
00:27:20,805 --> 00:27:23,408
and then the courts
just shut you down again.
399
00:27:25,210 --> 00:27:28,279
Every time you turn around,
you think something's positive,
400
00:27:29,247 --> 00:27:31,516
and then you just get kicked
in the face again.
401
00:27:54,139 --> 00:27:58,143
So, the surface of the sink
is hard and flat.
402
00:27:59,978 --> 00:28:02,080
And then, you know, roughly...
403
00:28:02,147 --> 00:28:05,917
What was it the State expert said...
the amount of blood in the car?
404
00:28:06,851 --> 00:28:10,055
[Stuart] I believe he estimated
two to three milliliters.
405
00:28:10,121 --> 00:28:11,122
Something like that.
406
00:28:11,189 --> 00:28:14,125
-I remember one to two milliliters.
-[Stuart] Yeah, something like that.
407
00:28:14,192 --> 00:28:18,329
So, we've got six spots in the car,
but the spots are all small.
408
00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:19,831
That's his estimate on it.
409
00:28:19,898 --> 00:28:22,701
-Yes. I think one to two, he said.
-[Kathleen] Right.
410
00:28:23,334 --> 00:28:26,104
So, let's talk about the blood in the car.
411
00:28:26,671 --> 00:28:31,543
We've got a description
by the Wisconsin Crime Lab
412
00:28:31,609 --> 00:28:35,947
that on this carpet they found flakes.
413
00:28:36,014 --> 00:28:41,753
And I'm talking about the carpet right,
uh, in front of the driver's seat.
414
00:28:41,820 --> 00:28:44,255
So, there were blood flakes
on this carpet,
415
00:28:44,322 --> 00:28:48,960
and the analyst picked those flakes up
with tweezers.
416
00:28:49,994 --> 00:28:53,264
Unless you have a considerable amount
of blood on the carpet,
417
00:28:53,898 --> 00:28:57,368
you're not gonna necessarily see flakes
or a drying effect,
418
00:28:57,435 --> 00:29:00,138
because with one or two drops,
or three drops,
419
00:29:00,205 --> 00:29:01,973
it's gonna absorb right into the carpet.
420
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,412
And to see flaking like that visually
would be probably not very likely.
421
00:29:07,879 --> 00:29:10,682
What if we open one of our tubes
422
00:29:11,116 --> 00:29:15,120
and drip onto this carpet, OK?
423
00:29:15,186 --> 00:29:18,223
Let's just watch what happens
when we drip.
424
00:29:20,825 --> 00:29:24,963
[Stuart] So, we're seeing very small drops
because they're absorbed into the carpet.
425
00:29:25,230 --> 00:29:27,499
Now, do you want me to make
a larger amount?
426
00:29:27,699 --> 00:29:29,601
[Kathleen]
Yeah, we could do another line larger,
427
00:29:29,667 --> 00:29:31,236
and then we could drip in the sink.
428
00:29:36,508 --> 00:29:40,812
So, let's try in the sink,
if we just drip in there
429
00:29:40,879 --> 00:29:43,915
and then we'll let it sit
as we're talking,
430
00:29:43,982 --> 00:29:46,851
and we can compare the two surfaces.
431
00:29:48,219 --> 00:29:49,888
-[Stuart] Kind of like that?
-Mm-hmm. Yeah.
432
00:29:51,656 --> 00:29:53,258
-[Stuart] Then we can...
-[Kathleen] Yeah.
433
00:29:53,324 --> 00:29:54,959
[Stuart] That's gonna take time to dry.
434
00:29:55,026 --> 00:29:56,694
-[Kathleen] Yeah.
-[Stuart] That's for sure.
435
00:30:06,638 --> 00:30:10,275
Yeah, what you're seeing, basically,
is the blood drying on the fibers.
436
00:30:10,341 --> 00:30:11,176
Right.
437
00:30:11,242 --> 00:30:15,547
If someone were to be processing
this car for blood,
438
00:30:16,548 --> 00:30:19,250
I would expect that they would've taken
the whole bloodstain.
439
00:30:19,317 --> 00:30:21,486
-They're quite visible.
-[Kathleen] Right.
440
00:30:21,553 --> 00:30:24,055
You wouldn't be taking a flake
off one of these stains.
441
00:30:24,122 --> 00:30:26,758
What the State has represented to me
442
00:30:27,325 --> 00:30:32,230
is there were not bloodstains,
there were just flakes.
443
00:30:32,297 --> 00:30:35,233
She's not describing stains.
444
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:37,535
She's not picking up flakes from stains.
445
00:30:37,602 --> 00:30:39,170
She's just picking up flakes,
446
00:30:39,237 --> 00:30:41,272
which tells you there's no stain there.
447
00:30:41,339 --> 00:30:43,541
-[Stuart] Which means that...
-The flakes were put there.
448
00:30:43,608 --> 00:30:47,579
They had to come from a different source,
whether it be from somewhere above...
449
00:30:47,645 --> 00:30:50,815
Although, looking at the transfer stain
on the dashboard,
450
00:30:51,683 --> 00:30:53,518
I don't see any evidence of that flaking.
451
00:30:54,052 --> 00:30:57,555
And it's not... It would never land
where this carpet is.
452
00:30:57,622 --> 00:31:01,626
This carpet is between
the console on the car.
453
00:31:02,193 --> 00:31:06,164
The flakes are back under here.
You can't see it in this picture.
454
00:31:06,231 --> 00:31:08,566
It's like, between the console
and the edge of the seat,
455
00:31:08,633 --> 00:31:10,835
is where she's finding them, so...
456
00:31:10,902 --> 00:31:12,470
That doesn't make any sense. I mean...
457
00:31:12,537 --> 00:31:15,306
If there are flakes,
there's gotta be a source of those flakes.
458
00:31:15,373 --> 00:31:16,207
[Kathleen] Yeah.
459
00:31:16,274 --> 00:31:18,710
Because she is not saying
there was a stain,
460
00:31:19,244 --> 00:31:21,145
and that's highly suspicious.
461
00:31:21,212 --> 00:31:23,214
I find it unusual, absolutely.
462
00:31:23,281 --> 00:31:25,683
Yeah, I just think that's preposterous.
463
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:30,455
So, OK, then let's talk about
this blood which...
464
00:31:30,521 --> 00:31:33,992
It looks like it's flowing down.
What is that?
465
00:31:34,058 --> 00:31:39,130
Uh, it appears to be, to me,
to be an angular passive drip stain.
466
00:31:39,197 --> 00:31:41,432
That just ran down like gravity?
467
00:31:41,499 --> 00:31:42,967
Well, yeah, I mean...
468
00:31:43,034 --> 00:31:46,504
Actually, I've got some
really good high-speed videos
469
00:31:46,571 --> 00:31:48,139
that show how this is formed.
470
00:31:48,206 --> 00:31:51,776
The blood drop
actually hits the surface here,
471
00:31:51,843 --> 00:31:54,712
and then it just kind of runs down
like this and then finally stops.
472
00:31:54,779 --> 00:31:56,514
That's pretty much
what we're seeing there.
473
00:31:56,581 --> 00:31:58,549
-Let me ask you this.
-[Larry] That's suspicious.
474
00:31:58,616 --> 00:32:03,454
If you got into the trailer
and the blood was in the sink,
475
00:32:04,088 --> 00:32:07,125
could you have picked a drop up
if you had this?
476
00:32:08,593 --> 00:32:11,763
Because I'm trying to think
the removal to the drop.
477
00:32:11,829 --> 00:32:14,699
Because swabbing,
you're not gonna create a drop.
478
00:32:14,766 --> 00:32:16,567
Sorry to displace you again here.
479
00:32:16,634 --> 00:32:18,202
-Yeah, I want to see.
-[Stuart] Here.
480
00:32:19,170 --> 00:32:21,105
-[Kathleen] So, let's see.
-Sure you can.
481
00:32:21,172 --> 00:32:22,140
[Kathleen] Oh, that's...
482
00:32:24,008 --> 00:32:26,644
Yeah, that would be
the better way to do it.
483
00:32:26,711 --> 00:32:28,680
If it's still wet.
It's gotta still be wet.
484
00:32:28,746 --> 00:32:32,016
Yeah, but they got in when it was wet,
so that's how you'd pull it up.
485
00:32:32,083 --> 00:32:34,285
Well, here.
I pulled some blood up from there.
486
00:32:34,352 --> 00:32:36,087
-Yeah.
-Let's see what we do here.
487
00:32:39,891 --> 00:32:42,527
You'll get almost the same thing.
I haven't got the same amount.
488
00:32:42,593 --> 00:32:44,095
It looks just like the one there.
489
00:32:44,162 --> 00:32:46,965
In fact, I think the bottom of that
has probably been cut off.
490
00:32:47,298 --> 00:32:49,200
That looks like
what you're seeing there, right?
491
00:32:49,267 --> 00:32:50,802
-[Kathleen] It does.
-[Stuart] Agreed?
492
00:32:50,868 --> 00:32:51,903
Yep, I agree.
493
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:54,572
So, now I know that's how,
494
00:32:54,639 --> 00:32:57,275
it was pulling up with a dropper.
495
00:33:04,949 --> 00:33:09,320
Steven Avery described dripping
on the edge of the sink and then...
496
00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:16,995
The blood should eventually, you know,
fragment after it...
497
00:33:17,061 --> 00:33:19,964
You'll see cracks in the surface,
et cetera,
498
00:33:20,031 --> 00:33:22,433
and we're waiting to see
when that will occur.
499
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:23,334
[Kathleen] Alright.
500
00:33:37,849 --> 00:33:39,250
-[Stuart] Alright.
-[Kathleen] OK.
501
00:33:41,085 --> 00:33:43,321
-[Stuart] Ready for the scraping episode?
-[Kathleen] Yeah.
502
00:33:45,289 --> 00:33:47,658
Those are a good size.
503
00:33:48,993 --> 00:33:50,194
-[Stuart] And this one.
-Yeah.
504
00:33:53,197 --> 00:33:55,466
Let's try...
This might be a little moist, but...
505
00:33:56,134 --> 00:33:57,902
-Yeah.
-[Kathleen] Yeah, it still broke up.
506
00:33:58,269 --> 00:34:00,738
I think
that non-absorbent surface really...
507
00:34:02,373 --> 00:34:04,242
[scraping]
508
00:34:04,308 --> 00:34:05,243
Great.
509
00:34:05,309 --> 00:34:07,612
-[Stuart] Quite a few in there.
-Yeah, you've got a bunch.
510
00:34:07,678 --> 00:34:08,513
Look at that.
511
00:34:09,113 --> 00:34:10,848
-Let's put--
-Yeah, I think that'll work.
512
00:34:10,915 --> 00:34:12,583
If you put it in the car,
513
00:34:12,650 --> 00:34:15,620
you should put it on some white paper
or something so it can be seen.
514
00:34:15,686 --> 00:34:18,322
[Kathleen] I will. Yeah, we'll take...
Yeah, I'll take...
515
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:19,223
[Stuart] Alright.
516
00:34:19,290 --> 00:34:22,760
Now what we should do is what we did...
We could swab up.
517
00:34:22,827 --> 00:34:24,295
Do you want this swab to go...?
518
00:34:24,362 --> 00:34:27,865
Yeah, these swabs we're gonna do
by the ignition.
519
00:34:30,435 --> 00:34:35,173
[Kathleen] The officers that are suspected
in that activity were evidence techs
520
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,476
who carried swabs and distilled water.
521
00:34:44,882 --> 00:34:46,584
[Stuart] Now let's see what I got here.
522
00:34:48,186 --> 00:34:49,987
-[Stuart] Here we go.
-[Kathleen] Oh, wow.
523
00:34:50,888 --> 00:34:52,423
-How's that?
-Great.
524
00:34:55,393 --> 00:34:56,461
[camera shutter clicks]
525
00:35:05,937 --> 00:35:07,071
[camera shutter clicks]
526
00:35:07,638 --> 00:35:08,706
[Kathleen] On the seats.
527
00:35:08,773 --> 00:35:09,674
[camera shutter clicks]
528
00:35:09,740 --> 00:35:11,742
And then I want to see up here what...
529
00:35:13,377 --> 00:35:14,378
There it is.
530
00:35:17,148 --> 00:35:18,082
[camera shutter clicks]
531
00:35:19,817 --> 00:35:23,354
Could that be true,
that it's just that simple?
532
00:35:23,421 --> 00:35:27,191
Someone got in the trailer,
wiped up the blood,
533
00:35:27,258 --> 00:35:31,562
and they dripped it into the car
and smeared above the ignition.
534
00:35:36,868 --> 00:35:40,438
I think the defense attorneys
probably underestimated
535
00:35:41,372 --> 00:35:43,207
what they were up against.
536
00:35:43,274 --> 00:35:44,208
And...
537
00:35:49,514 --> 00:35:50,615
I think that they...
538
00:35:50,681 --> 00:35:53,050
I mean, the State just has
enormous resources.
539
00:35:53,117 --> 00:35:55,686
They can bring in all these experts.
They can...
540
00:35:55,753 --> 00:35:57,989
You know, they have three attorneys
at the table.
541
00:35:58,055 --> 00:36:00,658
They've got all the cops working for them.
542
00:36:02,126 --> 00:36:06,197
I mean, you are outgunned
when you come into it.
543
00:36:07,899 --> 00:36:12,403
But I still believe,
if you just had a blood spatter expert...
544
00:36:13,938 --> 00:36:16,574
You know,
I've won cases just on blood spatter.
545
00:36:17,408 --> 00:36:18,409
So, if you could take...
546
00:36:18,476 --> 00:36:22,180
You could've definitively taken down
one piece of evidence
547
00:36:22,246 --> 00:36:23,648
and shown it was planted.
548
00:36:24,615 --> 00:36:28,719
It isn't like this would've cost,
um, you know,
549
00:36:28,786 --> 00:36:30,454
hundreds of thousands of dollars.
550
00:36:30,521 --> 00:36:34,625
You could've gotten the experts,
I think, for 20 grand.
551
00:36:35,426 --> 00:36:38,696
A lot of experts will help you,
just, if you're in that situation.
552
00:36:38,763 --> 00:36:42,266
I mean, this was child's play
for Stuart James.
553
00:36:42,333 --> 00:36:45,403
He could tell immediately
the blood spatter testimony
554
00:36:45,469 --> 00:36:47,438
was just completely wrong.
555
00:36:48,773 --> 00:36:51,342
It's hard to say
that someone's ineffective,
556
00:36:51,409 --> 00:36:55,213
but when the State has got 14 experts
and you've got two,
557
00:36:55,913 --> 00:36:58,149
there's something dramatically wrong.
558
00:36:59,217 --> 00:37:02,286
People ask us about the verdict
and how we explain it,
559
00:37:02,353 --> 00:37:04,956
and I think a lot of it
was the pretrial publicity
560
00:37:05,022 --> 00:37:07,692
that this particular jury
just couldn't put aside.
561
00:37:08,025 --> 00:37:11,963
That, and combined with the fact that...
the ruling shortly before trial
562
00:37:12,029 --> 00:37:15,766
that said we weren't gonna be able
to point the finger at any other suspect
563
00:37:15,833 --> 00:37:18,035
and present evidence of that.
564
00:37:18,102 --> 00:37:22,773
Unlike a lot of cases,
we had suspects, other suspects,
565
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,942
who could very well have done this,
566
00:37:25,009 --> 00:37:28,045
and tried to present that, and...
567
00:37:28,846 --> 00:37:32,717
But the court ruled against us
by stretching the prior law
568
00:37:32,783 --> 00:37:35,519
in a way that made it impossible
for us to do that.
569
00:37:36,554 --> 00:37:40,491
So, you know, I think that really
handicapped us from the beginning.
570
00:37:42,059 --> 00:37:43,227
[Nick] Based on my research,
571
00:37:43,294 --> 00:37:47,198
Wisconsin courts are more receptive
to ineffective assistance claims
572
00:37:47,265 --> 00:37:48,733
than maybe they are in Illinois.
573
00:37:48,799 --> 00:37:52,169
If you can show that something
the attorney did or did not do
574
00:37:52,236 --> 00:37:54,238
undermines confidence in the outcome...
575
00:37:54,305 --> 00:37:55,139
Right.
576
00:37:55,206 --> 00:37:57,642
...then that's something
on which a court might grant relief.
577
00:37:57,708 --> 00:38:03,247
So, for example, if an attorney fails
to present expert testimony
578
00:38:03,314 --> 00:38:05,082
that could've supported the defense.
579
00:38:05,149 --> 00:38:10,755
Or, you know, there are other cases that
talk about evidence that could have shown
580
00:38:10,821 --> 00:38:13,824
that the prosecution's version of events
was false.
581
00:38:13,891 --> 00:38:15,526
Um, you know, if that's something
582
00:38:15,593 --> 00:38:17,862
a defense attorney
didn't adequately investigate
583
00:38:17,928 --> 00:38:19,563
or present to the jury--
584
00:38:19,630 --> 00:38:22,099
[Kathleen]
I think that'll definitely apply here.
585
00:38:22,166 --> 00:38:26,070
Then the defense argued the Denny
standard was unconstitutional,
586
00:38:26,137 --> 00:38:29,907
but it's been part of Wisconsin law
since 1984.
587
00:38:29,974 --> 00:38:31,742
Exactly, they did a couple of things
588
00:38:31,809 --> 00:38:33,811
that I think would go into
what you were discussing about ineffective assistance of counsel.
589
00:38:35,946 --> 00:38:38,816
One argument they had
was that Denny doesn't apply to us,
590
00:38:38,883 --> 00:38:40,685
and there's no precedent for that.
591
00:38:40,751 --> 00:38:44,121
And then secondly,
they said we don't have to prove motive,
592
00:38:44,789 --> 00:38:48,492
uh, which there's no case law
to support that type of argument.
593
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:54,065
So, what's developing here is a pattern.
594
00:38:54,565 --> 00:38:56,667
Uh, I'll give you some examples.
595
00:38:56,734 --> 00:39:01,172
It's a failure on the forensic evidence
to follow up on what they've got.
596
00:39:01,238 --> 00:39:03,641
It's a failure to follow up on leads
597
00:39:03,708 --> 00:39:06,177
in the police reports
with certain individuals.
598
00:39:06,243 --> 00:39:08,346
The dog tracks which...
599
00:39:08,646 --> 00:39:11,382
You know, the scent dogs
are all over the quarry.
600
00:39:11,716 --> 00:39:14,285
The cumulative effect of that
601
00:39:14,352 --> 00:39:17,788
would, of course, undermine, I think,
confidence in the verdict,
602
00:39:17,855 --> 00:39:21,525
to just have so many things that
you didn't do as the defense attorney.
603
00:39:21,592 --> 00:39:22,426
Absolutely.
604
00:39:22,493 --> 00:39:25,763
And there are cases
that talk about cumulative error.
605
00:39:25,830 --> 00:39:27,098
-[Kathleen] Good.
-In Wisconsin.
606
00:39:27,798 --> 00:39:29,900
And that's something
that the court will consider.
607
00:39:29,967 --> 00:39:34,739
Yeah, I mean, they're successful
in getting the planted evidence theory
608
00:39:34,805 --> 00:39:36,407
in front of the jury,
609
00:39:36,474 --> 00:39:42,747
but it just has no impact because
it doesn't have any substance to it.
610
00:39:43,013 --> 00:39:47,051
I mean, the blood spatter expert says
he will testify
611
00:39:47,118 --> 00:39:50,321
that the blood by the ignition
was put on with an applicator.
612
00:39:51,255 --> 00:39:52,089
You know?
613
00:39:52,156 --> 00:39:53,724
I can't believe that didn't have one.
614
00:39:53,791 --> 00:39:55,760
[Kathleen] Yeah, it's...
When you look at this...
615
00:39:55,826 --> 00:39:57,628
Your whole theory is: blood is planted.
616
00:40:13,744 --> 00:40:15,746
When I've done murder trials,
617
00:40:15,813 --> 00:40:20,684
what I want the jury to hear
is my story of what happened,
618
00:40:20,751 --> 00:40:25,089
and my story is gonna involve
a different scenario
619
00:40:25,156 --> 00:40:26,724
of who killed the victim.
620
00:40:27,625 --> 00:40:33,097
And I'm going to push that.
That's at the top of my list, to do that.
621
00:40:33,164 --> 00:40:35,232
Because if I can convince the jury
622
00:40:35,299 --> 00:40:38,502
that someone else
could have committed the crime,
623
00:40:39,336 --> 00:40:40,471
I'm gonna win.
624
00:40:41,605 --> 00:40:44,408
[Kathleen]
When I spent time with Josh Radandt,
625
00:40:44,475 --> 00:40:47,178
he was very forthcoming with me
626
00:40:47,244 --> 00:40:52,516
and really went beyond what
he needed to do to answer my questions.
627
00:40:53,083 --> 00:40:57,354
And I believe
that he was completely credible.
628
00:40:58,389 --> 00:41:03,060
So, based on his alibi,
which we thoroughly checked out,
629
00:41:03,461 --> 00:41:08,699
based on my interview with him
and the additional evidence he gave me,
630
00:41:08,766 --> 00:41:13,771
I ruled him out as a Denny suspect,
so I crossed him off the list.
631
00:41:16,841 --> 00:41:19,610
The other thing I learned
that was extremely important
632
00:41:19,677 --> 00:41:25,583
was that the suspected human pelvic bones
weren't on his private property.
633
00:41:25,649 --> 00:41:28,352
They were on
the Manitowoc gravel property.
634
00:41:30,654 --> 00:41:35,025
So, we could then broaden
the investigation.
635
00:41:48,973 --> 00:41:51,041
It's "what" plus "why" equals "who."
636
00:41:51,108 --> 00:41:52,877
What happened? Why did it happen?
637
00:41:52,943 --> 00:41:55,713
If we understand why it happened,
we'll know who did it.
638
00:41:56,213 --> 00:41:58,415
-[Kathleen] Mm-hmm.
-I risk oversimplifying that.
639
00:41:58,482 --> 00:42:01,452
But, basically,
that's the pattern you want to go down.
640
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:04,622
So, doing a real thorough victimology,
641
00:42:04,688 --> 00:42:06,924
you want to know everyone
she's been in touch with,
642
00:42:06,991 --> 00:42:08,993
um, and who they are
643
00:42:09,059 --> 00:42:11,862
and what's the nature
of their relationship and all of that,
644
00:42:11,929 --> 00:42:15,099
especially close in time to the homicide.
645
00:42:15,533 --> 00:42:20,070
Do you see, um, any risk factor elevation
646
00:42:20,137 --> 00:42:22,706
with the type of job that she had?
647
00:42:23,541 --> 00:42:26,010
Yes, she was going out,
she was doing these AutoTrader things,
648
00:42:26,076 --> 00:42:29,446
shooting photos of cars
in different places and different people.
649
00:42:29,513 --> 00:42:31,482
She's gonna go out
and meet people she doesn't know.
650
00:42:32,182 --> 00:42:34,952
But 70 to 80 percent of people
who are murdered
651
00:42:35,019 --> 00:42:36,754
are murdered by someone they know.
652
00:42:37,154 --> 00:42:39,657
So, it's a combination
of looking at that particular victim
653
00:42:39,723 --> 00:42:41,859
and then looking at the people around her.
654
00:42:41,926 --> 00:42:45,963
If someone's in their twenties,
um, sexual relationships,
655
00:42:46,030 --> 00:42:47,765
boyfriends, whatever, how many.
656
00:42:47,831 --> 00:42:48,899
[Kathleen] Right.
657
00:42:48,966 --> 00:42:50,234
All those sorts of things.
658
00:42:50,301 --> 00:42:51,969
Because it's when...
659
00:42:52,036 --> 00:42:54,004
Those are the things that can be emotional
660
00:42:54,071 --> 00:42:57,174
and trigger people to do bad things.
661
00:42:57,241 --> 00:42:59,910
So, those are the areas that you want
to concentrate in
662
00:42:59,977 --> 00:43:03,847
and look into those private parts
of her life.
663
00:43:03,914 --> 00:43:06,083
You know, intimate relations and so forth,
664
00:43:06,150 --> 00:43:08,419
and, you know, she's sleeping
with somebody's husband.
665
00:43:08,485 --> 00:43:10,487
I mean, that's a risk factor.
666
00:43:10,554 --> 00:43:13,524
You know, all those things
you have to really understand
667
00:43:13,591 --> 00:43:16,093
to move in the right direction,
668
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,162
to make sure
you're not on the wrong tangent.
669
00:43:18,228 --> 00:43:20,731
And do families...
Like, with victims of families...
670
00:43:20,798 --> 00:43:23,601
Families are emotional. I understand that.
671
00:43:23,667 --> 00:43:25,302
That's a delicate part, dealing with...
672
00:43:25,369 --> 00:43:27,271
These are the vicarious victims
in a homicide,
673
00:43:27,338 --> 00:43:29,206
are the family members and friends.
674
00:43:29,273 --> 00:43:32,943
And you have to deal with that artfully
and compassionately with them.
675
00:43:33,010 --> 00:43:34,478
But you've got a job to do,
676
00:43:34,545 --> 00:43:37,948
and you've got to get in there
and find out what was going on.
677
00:43:38,015 --> 00:43:41,819
Otherwise, you're doing a disservice
to everybody, including the victim.
678
00:43:42,586 --> 00:43:47,658
So, yes, everybody close to her,
in contact with her, uh, even remotely,
679
00:43:47,725 --> 00:43:50,628
at the beginning has to be looked at
as a potential suspect
680
00:43:50,694 --> 00:43:53,397
until you can rule them out.
681
00:43:53,464 --> 00:43:57,267
One of the things that we did
was we created a chart
682
00:43:57,334 --> 00:44:00,137
of who did they get an alibi from.
683
00:44:00,204 --> 00:44:04,975
So, if we start with, you know,
the married man who's getting a divorce
684
00:44:05,042 --> 00:44:09,079
that she had the sexual relationship with,
685
00:44:09,146 --> 00:44:12,850
and then a friend of hers described
that she wanted to break that off,
686
00:44:12,916 --> 00:44:14,618
but he kept calling her.
687
00:44:15,285 --> 00:44:18,222
He described it as
they were still great friends.
688
00:44:18,288 --> 00:44:21,458
And then, of course,
he provides information
689
00:44:21,525 --> 00:44:24,128
that she's had sexual relations
with her roommate.
690
00:44:25,095 --> 00:44:28,465
Her roommate is best friends
with her ex-boyfriend, so...
691
00:44:28,532 --> 00:44:31,935
First of all, ex-boyfriends
have to always be in the suspect pool.
692
00:44:32,002 --> 00:44:33,904
The ex-boyfriend is never asked...
693
00:44:33,971 --> 00:44:36,073
He says at trial, he's very forthcoming,
694
00:44:36,140 --> 00:44:38,742
"No, I was never asked
to provide an alibi."
695
00:44:39,576 --> 00:44:42,413
The roommate was never asked
to provide an alibi.
696
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,616
And she goes missing on the 31st,
697
00:44:45,683 --> 00:44:49,253
but nobody reports that
until the 3rd of November.
698
00:44:49,319 --> 00:44:51,088
So, it isn't like when
she doesn't come home,
699
00:44:51,155 --> 00:44:53,490
the 31st, the 1st, the 2nd,
700
00:44:53,557 --> 00:44:55,059
that anybody's reporting it.
701
00:44:55,125 --> 00:44:58,295
It's her business colleague
that finally calls the mother
702
00:44:58,362 --> 00:45:00,130
and says, "I'm worried."
703
00:45:00,197 --> 00:45:03,033
So, would that make you comfortable
with eliminating them?
704
00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:06,236
No, not at all.
You can't eliminate anybody based on that.
705
00:45:06,303 --> 00:45:07,638
It's a lack of investigation.
706
00:45:07,705 --> 00:45:11,141
Each of those individuals have to be
looked at as potential suspects.
707
00:45:12,109 --> 00:45:14,044
The first thing we did was start with
708
00:45:14,111 --> 00:45:17,881
who was Teresa Halbach
and who was she in relationships with.
709
00:45:17,948 --> 00:45:20,484
And we checked out, from her phone records
710
00:45:20,551 --> 00:45:22,486
and everything we could gather,
her emails,
711
00:45:22,553 --> 00:45:24,722
everyone that she had had contact with,
712
00:45:24,788 --> 00:45:27,291
and we did criminal background checks
on them,
713
00:45:27,357 --> 00:45:32,596
and then we looked at potential alibis
for that day, possible motives,
714
00:45:32,663 --> 00:45:33,997
the nature of the relationship.
715
00:45:34,064 --> 00:45:36,033
All of that we sorted through
716
00:45:36,100 --> 00:45:41,105
to refine it down to one person,
two people,
717
00:45:41,171 --> 00:45:43,440
uh, that might meet the Denny standard.
718
00:45:44,341 --> 00:45:46,910
And at the top of my list
was Ryan Hillegas.
719
00:45:47,277 --> 00:45:48,846
[inaudible]
720
00:45:48,912 --> 00:45:50,581
[Kathleen] There was tension between them.
721
00:45:52,149 --> 00:45:53,150
During the summer,
722
00:45:53,217 --> 00:45:55,119
she didn't even want
to photograph a wedding
723
00:45:55,185 --> 00:45:57,521
that she knew
he was gonna be the best man in.
724
00:45:58,956 --> 00:46:01,658
They broke up in 2001,
725
00:46:01,725 --> 00:46:06,063
but Ryan was still coming over a lot,
visiting,
726
00:46:06,130 --> 00:46:09,666
and Teresa even wrote in an email
in October
727
00:46:09,733 --> 00:46:12,736
that she realized that Ryan
was still interested in her,
728
00:46:12,803 --> 00:46:14,772
was still checking her out.
729
00:46:22,846 --> 00:46:25,983
[Kathleen]
It's clear to me that she's over Ryan,
730
00:46:26,717 --> 00:46:29,787
but Ryan still seems interested in her.
731
00:46:31,288 --> 00:46:36,193
And then after she's murdered,
he's moved into her place
732
00:46:36,260 --> 00:46:39,997
and he's there
where there's potentially evidence.
733
00:46:44,234 --> 00:46:47,437
I found that just unbelievable.
734
00:46:48,505 --> 00:46:52,676
And then he's providing
the most intimate details about her
735
00:46:53,210 --> 00:46:54,745
to the investigators.
736
00:47:03,954 --> 00:47:07,257
When you say you talked to the police,
who did you speak with?
737
00:47:07,324 --> 00:47:08,158
Um...
738
00:47:10,994 --> 00:47:12,196
uh, let's see.
739
00:47:12,996 --> 00:47:16,733
I know, uh, Thursday night,
when we were at the house,
740
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,236
I went over after Scott called me,
I went to the house,
741
00:47:19,636 --> 00:47:22,406
and we kind of started calling around
and calling friends then, but...
742
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,211
I believe it was Jerry Pagel and...
743
00:47:28,245 --> 00:47:31,315
Detective Wiegert
who were at the house Thursday night,
744
00:47:31,782 --> 00:47:34,518
collecting belongings
and asking questions.
745
00:47:34,585 --> 00:47:36,587
Um, the family was there, also.
746
00:47:36,653 --> 00:47:38,288
[Jerry] And so, did you tell Sheriff Pagel
747
00:47:38,355 --> 00:47:41,458
that you had, sort of,
become the coordinator of all of this?
748
00:47:43,327 --> 00:47:45,596
I don't believe so.
I think it was just kind of assumed.
749
00:47:45,662 --> 00:47:48,799
I was kind of the contact
for the whole search.
750
00:47:48,866 --> 00:47:51,602
If anybody wanted to help,
they were instructed to call me.
751
00:47:52,603 --> 00:47:54,972
Basically, it, I guess, started with me.
752
00:47:55,806 --> 00:47:59,142
[Jerry] Did you at some point ever go
to the property, the Avery property?
753
00:47:59,209 --> 00:48:01,044
-Yes.
-When was that?
754
00:48:03,113 --> 00:48:04,214
Jeez. Um...
755
00:48:05,682 --> 00:48:07,784
We... When did we go there?
756
00:48:08,886 --> 00:48:10,020
[clicks tongue]
757
00:48:10,921 --> 00:48:14,258
[muttering] Saturday, cars. Sunday...
758
00:48:15,192 --> 00:48:18,462
I'm not real sure on the dates. Um...
759
00:48:20,297 --> 00:48:23,200
It was possibly that Monday or Tuesday,
760
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,102
which would've been the...
761
00:48:26,503 --> 00:48:27,337
Let's see...
762
00:48:27,404 --> 00:48:29,039
[muttering] Third, fourth, fifth...
763
00:48:29,106 --> 00:48:32,109
-Was that the 6th or 7th? That Monday?
-[Jerry] Let me ask you this way.
764
00:48:32,175 --> 00:48:34,044
When you went to the property, was it...
765
00:48:34,845 --> 00:48:38,215
was it still, to your knowledge,
in the custody of the law enforcement?
766
00:48:38,582 --> 00:48:39,416
Yes.
767
00:48:39,683 --> 00:48:41,485
[Jerry]
Did you pass through any checkpoints?
768
00:48:41,551 --> 00:48:42,386
Yes.
769
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:45,956
[Jerry]
And did the officers who let you in
770
00:48:46,023 --> 00:48:48,592
know that you had a relationship
771
00:48:48,659 --> 00:48:52,262
as a former boyfriend
with the missing woman at that point?
772
00:48:54,298 --> 00:48:58,235
I... I don't know if anybody knew
I was an ex-boyfriend.
773
00:48:58,302 --> 00:49:01,672
Or, I guess,
I never saw the relevance in it, or...
774
00:49:01,738 --> 00:49:03,674
-[Jerry] Did Sheriff Pagel know that?
-What's that?
775
00:49:03,740 --> 00:49:05,742
Did Sheriff Pagel
know of your relationship with her?
776
00:49:05,809 --> 00:49:07,544
At that time, I don't believe so.
777
00:49:07,611 --> 00:49:10,113
I think everybody just assumed
I was a good friend.
778
00:49:12,382 --> 00:49:15,552
[Kathleen] He's got access
to Teresa's personal possessions,
779
00:49:15,619 --> 00:49:16,753
to her residence,
780
00:49:17,721 --> 00:49:23,026
and then he's on the Avery property,
crossing the checkpoints on November 7th.
781
00:49:23,860 --> 00:49:29,733
The key, the sub-key, is discovered
on the 8th in Mr. Avery's bedroom.
782
00:49:30,567 --> 00:49:32,903
We think there was a sub-key at her house,
783
00:49:32,970 --> 00:49:37,874
and somebody who had access to her house
gave that key to the police.
784
00:49:38,342 --> 00:49:39,509
[inaudible]
785
00:49:39,810 --> 00:49:42,412
[Kathleen] We've made repeated efforts
to talk to him,
786
00:49:42,746 --> 00:49:47,317
and we've told him the reason
we want to talk to him is to rule him out
787
00:49:47,384 --> 00:49:51,655
if he can give me plausible explanations
for things.
788
00:49:52,055 --> 00:49:54,024
But he doesn't respond.
789
00:49:57,527 --> 00:50:02,199
And one of the most suspicious parts
of the case
790
00:50:02,265 --> 00:50:07,170
is his story about
the parking light on Teresa's vehicle.
791
00:50:08,438 --> 00:50:12,075
He told the police
that he had talked to family and friends
792
00:50:12,142 --> 00:50:16,013
and had determined that Teresa
had broken out the parking light
793
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:17,814
before October 31st,
794
00:50:17,881 --> 00:50:21,051
made an insurance claim,
taken a cash payout, but she had kept the money
and didn't get the car repaired.
795
00:50:27,124 --> 00:50:28,959
That's interesting
because that's elaborate.
796
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,330
And over the years, what you notice is,
797
00:50:33,397 --> 00:50:36,733
people who lie
usually have real elaborate lies.
798
00:50:37,234 --> 00:50:41,071
So, the first thing
that I checked out was,
799
00:50:41,605 --> 00:50:48,278
was that parking light broken when
she visited the appointments that day?
800
00:50:48,845 --> 00:50:52,649
Her client, Mr. Schmitz,
said that the car looked new.
801
00:50:52,716 --> 00:50:54,718
The car is six years old.
802
00:50:54,785 --> 00:50:59,256
Our interpretation of that
was he didn't see any damage.
803
00:50:59,322 --> 00:51:01,324
The car wasn't banged up or anything.
804
00:51:02,726 --> 00:51:04,995
So, then we went back
to the insurance company,
805
00:51:05,662 --> 00:51:09,833
and they said she never made a claim
about the parking light.
806
00:51:10,667 --> 00:51:12,736
She made a claim
about her windshield wiper,
807
00:51:12,803 --> 00:51:15,605
this little, tiny expense,
808
00:51:15,672 --> 00:51:19,242
but she didn't make a claim
about this really significant damage
809
00:51:19,309 --> 00:51:20,911
to the front of her vehicle.
810
00:51:22,312 --> 00:51:25,182
But the most important thing
is the missing poster,
811
00:51:26,083 --> 00:51:28,385
because when you put out
a description of a car,
812
00:51:28,452 --> 00:51:30,420
and it was a detailed description,
813
00:51:30,487 --> 00:51:34,091
if it has any body damage,
you put that on there,
814
00:51:34,157 --> 00:51:38,295
because that would've stood out
above everything else,
815
00:51:38,728 --> 00:51:41,098
if people were seeing a RAV driving around
816
00:51:41,164 --> 00:51:43,667
with that whole front parking light
knocked out.
817
00:51:45,435 --> 00:51:49,973
So, the parking light was not damaged
before she was murdered.
818
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,110
It is part of the events of the murder.
819
00:51:53,176 --> 00:51:57,380
And Mr. Hillegas connected himself
to the parking light.
820
00:51:58,248 --> 00:52:01,418
And that is a huge piece of evidence
821
00:52:02,152 --> 00:52:03,720
linking him to the crime.
822
00:52:05,255 --> 00:52:07,524
That's not correct. I did call her...
823
00:52:09,326 --> 00:52:10,961
[Kathleen] Sorry to offend everyone,
824
00:52:11,027 --> 00:52:14,898
but I'm very offended
by having a client who's innocent
825
00:52:14,965 --> 00:52:17,567
and is now spending, you know...
826
00:52:17,634 --> 00:52:22,072
has now spent 13 years locked up
for something he didn't do.
827
00:52:22,139 --> 00:52:26,643
So, all of our feelings are hurt.
But I'm going at it.
828
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:30,514
Wherever the Denny road
and the evidence takes me,
829
00:52:30,580 --> 00:52:32,315
that's where I'm going.
830
00:52:32,382 --> 00:52:36,319
And if people want to get off the train,
give us a call.
831
00:52:36,386 --> 00:52:39,055
We're totally reasonable.
832
00:52:39,122 --> 00:52:43,426
But I have no explanations
for all of these things on Ryan Hillegas.
833
00:52:49,132 --> 00:52:52,869
[Barb] So, your attorney's
got the brief all done, I guess.
834
00:52:53,803 --> 00:52:55,172
-[Brendan] Yeah?
-[Barb] Yeah.
835
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,010
[Brendan] That's for the... the nor...
the regular appeal, right?
836
00:53:00,076 --> 00:53:03,046
[Barb] That's for the 7th Circuit.
837
00:53:03,747 --> 00:53:05,782
[Brendan] Yeah. The one in Chicago.
838
00:53:05,849 --> 00:53:06,683
[Barb] Yeah.
839
00:53:08,852 --> 00:53:11,021
[Brendan]
Do you know how many pages it was?
840
00:53:11,087 --> 00:53:11,922
[Barb] No.
841
00:53:12,622 --> 00:53:14,691
-[Brendan] No?
-[Barb] No.
842
00:53:14,758 --> 00:53:16,793
I haven't to Laura, so...
843
00:53:20,997 --> 00:53:21,998
[dog barking]
844
00:53:23,567 --> 00:53:26,002
[Barb] No, but she's good, so...
845
00:53:26,069 --> 00:53:27,737
-[Brendan] Yeah?
-[Barb] Yeah.
846
00:53:37,214 --> 00:53:40,917
[Laura] The process in the 7th Circuit
involves each side having an opportunity
847
00:53:40,984 --> 00:53:43,286
to file briefs in front of the court
848
00:53:43,353 --> 00:53:45,889
that spell out your argument
in written form,
849
00:53:45,956 --> 00:53:48,124
and then the court
will review those briefs
850
00:53:48,191 --> 00:53:51,094
and review the record of the proceedings
that happened below
851
00:53:51,161 --> 00:53:53,563
in federal court and in state court.
852
00:53:54,564 --> 00:53:56,333
And then comes oral argument,
853
00:53:56,399 --> 00:54:00,637
at which point lawyers from both sides
will go into a courtroom
854
00:54:00,704 --> 00:54:03,373
at the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals
in Chicago
855
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,344
and have an opportunity
to make their points out loud
856
00:54:07,410 --> 00:54:11,181
to a panel of judges
who will ask questions of either side.
857
00:54:15,252 --> 00:54:17,320
Brad Schimel.
Brad, thanks for being on the show.
858
00:54:17,387 --> 00:54:18,922
Thank you for having me, Jamie.
859
00:54:19,222 --> 00:54:21,825
Um, so, you've got several areas...
860
00:54:21,891 --> 00:54:25,095
Just, you know, give our viewers some idea
861
00:54:25,161 --> 00:54:29,799
of, like, how much is prosecuting
specific types of cases
862
00:54:29,866 --> 00:54:31,768
versus government affairs and so forth.
863
00:54:31,835 --> 00:54:36,406
Well, we have about 100 lawyers who work
in our Division of Legal Services.
864
00:54:36,473 --> 00:54:40,076
About two dozen of them do
criminal prosecutions for the DA's offices
865
00:54:40,143 --> 00:54:42,612
when they have a highly complex case
866
00:54:42,679 --> 00:54:45,649
or a case that's gonna take
tremendous resources.
867
00:54:45,715 --> 00:54:49,686
And they also do the criminal appeals
for the DA's offices.
868
00:54:50,186 --> 00:54:55,025
And we have about 100 special agents with
the Division of Criminal Investigation
869
00:54:55,091 --> 00:54:57,761
who handle complex cases.
870
00:54:57,827 --> 00:55:00,797
So, investigators, not just lawyers,
as employees.
871
00:55:00,864 --> 00:55:01,831
-Right.
-OK.
872
00:55:01,898 --> 00:55:03,833
We also have the three crime labs.
873
00:55:03,900 --> 00:55:07,237
So, I have about 200 people
that work in our crime labs
874
00:55:07,304 --> 00:55:09,572
in Madison, Wausau, and Milwaukee.
875
00:55:10,573 --> 00:55:13,176
We also have
our Solicitor General's division.
876
00:55:13,243 --> 00:55:16,379
That's working on defending
our state's sovereignty
877
00:55:16,446 --> 00:55:17,847
relative to the federal government.
878
00:55:58,688 --> 00:56:03,827
The case is set for oral argument
on Valentine's Day, 2017,
879
00:56:04,361 --> 00:56:09,933
and that means that both sides will get
to present their case in 20 minutes
880
00:56:10,266 --> 00:56:14,371
to a panel of judges
of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.
881
00:56:15,205 --> 00:56:16,840
This is a federal court
882
00:56:16,906 --> 00:56:20,543
that is one step below
the United States Supreme Court.
883
00:56:23,213 --> 00:56:25,215
[Drizin] It's a very important day,
884
00:56:25,281 --> 00:56:28,318
and that's why
we are putting so much energy
885
00:56:28,385 --> 00:56:31,721
into preparing Laura for this case.
886
00:56:34,424 --> 00:56:37,761
This is just the first
in a series of mock arguments.
887
00:56:39,028 --> 00:56:42,832
What we're trying to do is to,
as best as possible,
888
00:56:42,899 --> 00:56:45,902
replicate the experience
that Laura's gonna have
889
00:56:45,969 --> 00:56:48,304
when she steps up
in front of the 7th Circuit.
890
00:56:49,272 --> 00:56:53,843
One of our students is actually going
to argue the case for the State.
891
00:56:53,910 --> 00:56:56,880
There will be a panel of judges
that I have selected,
892
00:56:57,313 --> 00:56:58,681
leading law school faculty,
893
00:56:59,349 --> 00:57:03,453
some who have experience in this area,
some who are fresh to this case.
894
00:57:04,421 --> 00:57:06,589
Because we won
in the federal district court,
895
00:57:06,656 --> 00:57:08,057
the State gets to go first.
896
00:57:08,658 --> 00:57:10,627
He'll get questioned by the judges,
897
00:57:10,693 --> 00:57:13,830
because we want to make this
as real as possible
898
00:57:13,897 --> 00:57:16,433
so Laura can sort of pick up
on the questions
899
00:57:16,499 --> 00:57:18,868
that the judge asks the State.
900
00:57:19,502 --> 00:57:22,539
Laura will then get 20 minutes,
901
00:57:22,605 --> 00:57:26,876
essentially defending the district court's
decision in Brendan's case.
902
00:57:27,043 --> 00:57:28,745
[inaudible]
903
00:57:36,653 --> 00:57:40,590
[Drizin] This is a hugely important day
for Brendan Dassey.
904
00:57:40,657 --> 00:57:45,061
When we won in federal court,
in front of Judge Duffin,
905
00:57:45,695 --> 00:57:48,131
that was about a one in a hundred shot.
906
00:57:48,865 --> 00:57:52,335
Each step of the way
you go into the court system,
907
00:57:52,402 --> 00:57:57,006
the higher and higher levels of appeal,
the harder it is to win.
908
00:57:57,073 --> 00:57:59,642
And if we lose in the 7th Circuit,
909
00:57:59,709 --> 00:58:03,947
it just makes our climb
that much more difficult.
910
00:58:05,315 --> 00:58:06,816
[applause]
911
00:58:13,456 --> 00:58:14,991
[indistinct chatter]
912
00:58:20,396 --> 00:58:23,132
[Laura] Brendan was the first case
that I got assigned as a law student,
913
00:58:23,199 --> 00:58:24,634
and it changed my life.
914
00:58:27,237 --> 00:58:31,140
When I got assigned to Brendan's case
and watched those videos,
915
00:58:31,774 --> 00:58:34,777
I knew that's what I wanted to do,
I had to help people like this.
916
00:58:35,612 --> 00:58:39,415
I now teach the same class
that I took ten years ago.
917
00:58:40,049 --> 00:58:42,318
You know, it's kind of
come full circle for me.
918
00:58:45,955 --> 00:58:48,324
These aren't just names on a page
or just legal arguments,
919
00:58:48,391 --> 00:58:51,227
these are real people
with families and friends.
920
00:58:51,294 --> 00:58:53,763
They deserve justice
and they deserve truth.
921
00:59:00,503 --> 00:59:02,805
Brendan will not be in attendance
at this argument.
922
00:59:02,872 --> 00:59:07,043
It's very unusual for defendants
to be present.
923
00:59:08,011 --> 00:59:12,982
I think Brendan is, you know,
unsettled by this.
924
00:59:13,483 --> 00:59:17,520
I think he is cautiously optimistic
925
00:59:17,587 --> 00:59:21,758
that this will be one step closer
to freedom.
926
00:59:22,692 --> 00:59:28,031
But he also realizes that there have
been disappointments all along the way.
927
00:59:28,097 --> 00:59:30,900
[dramatic music playing]
928
01:00:27,457 --> 01:00:31,828
[Robert] What has this kid been through
from ages 16 to 26 now?
929
01:00:31,894 --> 01:00:33,463
And, you know, it's not over.
930
01:00:34,397 --> 01:00:38,301
It's not over until, um,
either the government says
931
01:00:38,368 --> 01:00:41,137
that we're not going to prosecute you
932
01:00:41,204 --> 01:00:45,875
or, you know, a jury comes back
with a not guilty verdict.
933
01:00:46,976 --> 01:00:49,545
And actually,
there is no statute of limitations,
934
01:00:49,612 --> 01:00:50,880
come to think of it, for murder.
935
01:00:50,947 --> 01:00:55,885
So, it's probably the not guilty verdict
that is the only thing that's final here.
936
01:00:57,687 --> 01:01:01,324
It's something Brendan's gonna live with
for the rest of his life, like it or not.
937
01:01:09,832 --> 01:01:11,267
[dial tone]
938
01:01:14,804 --> 01:01:17,640
Hi, this Laura Nirider. I have a question.
939
01:01:17,707 --> 01:01:23,179
I'm in the process of trying to e-file
my oral argument card.
940
01:01:24,113 --> 01:01:26,315
[Drizin]
There will be a panel of three judges.
941
01:01:26,382 --> 01:01:30,520
We will not know that panel
until the morning of the argument.
942
01:01:31,154 --> 01:01:34,791
So, part of what we are doing
is making sure
943
01:01:34,857 --> 01:01:40,697
that she understands the viewpoints
of all 11 of the judges
944
01:01:40,763 --> 01:01:41,964
on the 7th Circuit,
945
01:01:42,031 --> 01:01:45,435
that she's read opinions
by all of those judges on the areas
that we're covering in argument,
946
01:01:48,971 --> 01:01:52,842
so that she can adapt her argument
if need be,
947
01:01:52,909 --> 01:01:54,711
depending on who the panel is.